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Showing posts with label jared lee loughner. Show all posts
Showing posts with label jared lee loughner. Show all posts

13 January 2011

Brave Woman Who Grabbed Clip from Shooter Blames Right-Wing Media and Rhetoric ... In Fox News Interview 10JAN11

WELL SAID PATRICIA MAISCH, WELL SAID!!!!! a LADY BRAVE IN ACTION AND WORD!!!! Be sure to check out the video of her interview to her her words for yourself....


In an interview on Fox, the brave woman who helped stop Loughner calls out right-wing media for creating an environment that encourages violent impulses.
Patricia Maisch, 61, was the brave woman who kept alleged shooter Jared Loughner from unloading a second clip into a Tuscon crowd on Saturday. Wounded herself from a bullet, she saw him attempting to equip his gun with another magazine, grabbed him and knelt on his ankle, delaying the reload and potentially saving many more lives. 
So when Fox News interviewed her on Sunday, they clearly wanted to know if her strength could translate to psychic healing as Americans grappled with the tragedy. “We've all noted the calmness with which all of you, who helped save the day, conducted yourself,” said Fox anchor Shepard Smith. “I just want to know now, a day later... if there's anything you can think of... that you might be able to turn into a positive. Is there anything that you can leave us with that will make us all feel better?”
“I think Sheriff Dupnik said it best that the extreme right reporters in radio and TV have added to this problem,” she responded. “And I'm just hoping that'll change because of this." She then specifically calls out Republicans for characterizing the health care bill as “job-killing.” "I think they've just gone over the top," she added. "I think that the extreme right has gone too far."
It probably wasn't the response Smith was looking for, but the irony of her comment on Fox -- which employs Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly and many others accused of inflammatory rhetoric -- was not lost. Watch:

10 January 2011

Giffords Shootings: the Poisonous Fruit of Arizona's Vicious Politics 10JAN11

A insightful piece from AlterNet of the violence in Tucson. As much as some republicans want to deny any linking of political speech and this horrible event, one can not use words and images that suggest violence against those one opposes and then when it actually happens claim they were not advocating violence. People who spew hate, intolerance, violence, prejudice and rage across the internet through their blogs, pacs, press releases, campaign media, websites, e mails, mailings, radio and TV broadcast are responsible for the actions their words and images provoke. We can only hope the horror of these murders and woundings, the pain of the families and friends stays with us for a long time, as a check, to remind us of what can happen......
"The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said. "Arizona, I think, has become the capital.
 
Hundreds gathered Saturday night at a candlelight vigil at the Tucson University Medical Center, were U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and at least 10 other people were being treated for gunshot wounds in a savage attack that left six dead and the nation sickened and stunned.

The marchers held signs reading “Gabrielle we are with you,” “Tucson, we love you,” and “Peace will prevail.” Delayla Herrera was among the Tucson residents who joined in prayer for the dead and wounded and their families, even though she didn’t know any of them personally.

“It’s painful because I have a daughter and a son, and this is something I wouldn’t want to happen to them,” Herrera said. “There was an innocent child that died just for being there,” she added, referring to 9-year-old Christina Taylor-Green, who had gone with a neighbor to meet Giffords and was killed in the attack. Christina, recently elected to her school’s student council, was born on Sept. 11, 2001.

Giffords, 40, a three-term moderate Democrat from Tucson, was shot point-blank in the head Saturday morning when at least one assailant opened fire outside a Safeway where the congresswoman was meeting with constituents. Doctors said the bullet went through Giffords’s brain, leaving her in critical condition, but they expressed optimism about her chances of survival.

In addition to Christina, the dead included John Roll, the chief federal judge for the state of Arizona, and Gabe Zimmerman, a former social worker who served as Giffords' director of community outreach. Also killed were 76-year-old Dorthy Murray, 76-year-old Dorwin Stoddard, and 79-year-old Phyllis Scheck, investigators said.

A shaken President Barack Obama called the shooting an "unspeakable tragedy," adding: “Such a senseless and terrible act of violence has no place in a free society."

"I am sickened by the horrific attack in Tucson today and saddened by this senseless violence,"  Rep. Raul M. Grijalva, another Democrat from the Tucson area, said in a statement issued to the press. "This is a tragedy for Arizona, our nation, and our democracy. Gabrielle never let fear or intimidation prevent her from serving the people of Arizona. My thoughts and prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords, her husband Mark, her staff, all those who were injured, and their families."

Giffords, like Grijalva, narrowly won re-election in November against a Tea Party candidate furious over the passage of Obama’s health care law and Democrats' opposition to Arizona's anti-immigrant laws. According to the Associated Press, during the campaign, her opponent, Jesse Kelly, held fundraisers "where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle." Kelly is a former Marine who served in Iraq and was pictured on his website in military gear holding his automatic weapon and promoting the event.

Fury over Giffords’s position occasionally turned violent, with her Tucson office vandalized and someone showing up at a recent gathering with a weapon Law enforcement officials said members of Congress reported 42 cases of threats or violence in the first three months of 2010, nearly three times the 15 cases reported during the same period a year earlier. Nearly all dealt with the health care bill, the Associated Press reported. 

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik blamed the shooting on the poisonous political rhetoric that has consumed the country, much of it centered in Arizona and fanned by a series of hard-line anti-immigration bills by lawmakers in the state, including SB 1070 and a new proposal to deny citizenship to the U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants.

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous," Dupnik said. "And unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

Giffords expressed similar concerns. In an interview after her office was vandalized in March, she referred to the animosity of conservatives, including Sarah Palin's decision to list her seat as one of the top "targets" in the midterm elections.

"For example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action," Giffords said in the interview with MSNBC.

In the hours after the shooting, Palin issued a statement in which she expressed her "sincere condolences" to the family of Giffords and the other victims.”

Republican governor Jan Brewer, who signed SB 1070 into law last year and rode it to victory on Election Night, said: "My thoughts and prayers are with Congresswoman Giffords and her family, the Congresswoman's staff and their families, as well as the other victims of this senseless and cruel violence."

But those words seemed empty to Isabel Garcia, director of Derechos Humanos, a human rights coalition in Tucson. She said the dead and wounded were victims of the militarization of the border created by federal policies and the negative rhetoric that has accompanied it for decades.

Garcia echoed Dupnik’s comments, blaming the mass media for distributing “misinformation by hate groups creating fear in the community and eventually leading to more anti Mexican rhetoric and anti-human rhetoric.”

“It’s not enough to just grieve together,” Garcia said. “Their deaths cannot be in vain. This should wake us up to what our real responsibilities are, which is to care for one another regardless of color and class, sexuality and nationality.”

“I don’t agree that we should take a political advantage out of what has happened,” said Daniel Ortega, a local civil rights attorney who attended a vigil for the victims in Phoenix. “But this does send the message that people who try to serve the community in political positions are risking much more than we imagine.”

Both Democratic and Republican Latinos expressed their sorrow. “[Giffords] was a good friend and represented the Tucson district very well,” said Alberto Gutier, a Republican lobbyist who has worked with her in the past.

“We demand justice against the person responsible,” said Francisco Lara Garcia, a political science student in the University of Tucson, “but also for the tone of the political speech in the country to calm down. There is a political climate in the U.S. that promotes these attitudes and attacks against people that are simply fulfilling their role as Congress people.”

Police said the shooter, identified as 22-year-old Jared Loughner, was in custody. His motivation was not immediately known, but Dupnik described him as mentally unstable and possibly acting with an accomplice, and police were searching for a second man, said to be in his 50s.

08 January 2011

Jared Lee Loughner: Meet Rep. Giffords' Alleged Shooter & Rep. Grijalva: After Giffords Shooting, Tea Party and Palin Better Watch It 8JAN11

KEEP in mind the fact that sarah palin's gun-sights pic list Rep Gabrielle Giffords (D AZ)and other members of Congress on it, as well as the hate filled and violence inciting rhetoric of glenn beck and rush limbaugh and meet the shooter who murdered 6 people and attempted to kill 12 more, including Rep Gifford's.....and then read the MOJO piece on Rep Grijalva's comments..........AND check out Rep Gifford's opponent's (jesse kelly) political ad TARGETING her in the 2010 mid-term elections....


Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) was shot in the head Saturday morning at a "Congress on Your Corner" event outside a supermarket in Tucson. After initial reports that Giffords had died, the hospital has confirmed she remains in critical condition though she is "expected to pull through," according to MSNBC. Six people were killed in the shooting—including federal judge Bill Roll, Giffords' district director, and a nine-year-old child—and at least 12 people were injured.
The alleged assailant has been identified as 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner, an Arizona resident described by one eyewitness as a white, clean-cut man who reportedly called out the names of some of his victims as he began shooting. (The Associated Press identified the suspect, who's now in police custody, as Jared Laughner, but the Arizona Daily Star, Politico, and other outlets have ID'd him as "Loughner.") The suspect appears to have posted YouTube videos under the handle "Classitup10" that rail against the government and talk of revolution and terrorism. The user, identified as "Jared Lee Loughner," says in a rage-filled, rambling, and incoherent post accompanying one video:
We need a drum roll for those front runners in the election; those illegal teachers, pigs, and politicians of yours are under illegal authority of their constitution. Those dirty pigs think they know the damn year. Thirdly, tell them mother fuckers to count from 0 to whenever they feel a threat to stop their count…Those illegal military personal are able to sign into a country that they can't find with an impossible date! How did you trust your child with them fraud teachers and front runners, listener? Did you now know that the teachers, pigs, and front runners are treasonous!
In another video, the same user accuses the government of imposing "mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar." Loughner continues: "You don't have to accept hte [SIC] federalist laws…A terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon. If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem."
Giffords, a moderate Democrat, had been threatened in the recent past. Shortly after the health care vote, Giffords' district office was vandalized, and extremists subsequently encouraged the public to throw bricks through the windows of lawmakers, as my colleague James Ridgeway has reported. (Other Democratic supporters were also subject to violent threats and attacks on their offices.) In the summer of 2009, Giffords' aides called the police after an attendee at a public event dropped a gun. The 40-year-old Arizona Democrat barely squeaked by her opponent in 2010, winning by less than one percentage point against the tea party-backed Jesse Kelly. The Tucson event was her first public appearance since her re-election.
Rep. Raul Grijalva, another Arizona Democrat, was also recently threatened with violence: in July, a bullet was fired through the window of his district office in Yuma, and an envelope with a toxic powder was sent to his Tucson office.

Rep. Grijalva: After Giffords Shooting, Tea Party and Palin Better Watch It

| Sat Jan. 8, 2011 3:36 PM PST
In the wake of the attempted assassination of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and the shooting of more than 20 others in Tucson today, fellow Arizona Democrat Rep. Raul Grijalva denounced a political environment poisoned by "anger, hatred, and division." In a phone interview with Mother Jones, Grijalva called the assault "horrible and unbelievable and shocking….It's hard to explain and really difficult to comprehend." Grijalva—who was also the recent target of violent threats—went on to blame the polarized political climate for creating an atmosphere that fueled violence:
We never entered [politics] believing that we were taking our lives in our hands...we're feeding anger, hatred, and division for quite a while. Maybe it is time for elected officials and leaders in this country that have been feeding that disease to realize that there are consequences to it. I hope people stop and think that we can be opponents, but we don't have to be deadly enemies…to demonize another person because of a disagreement and to make them expendible is not a democracy, it's not the America I know.
Asked whether the tea party right deserved to be singled out for particular blame, Grijalva assented:
[When] you stoke these flames, and you go to public meetings and you scream at the elected officials, you threaten them—you make us expendable you make us part of the cannon fodder. For a while, you've been feeding this hatred, this division…you feed it, you encourage it….Something's going to happen. People are feeding this monster….Some of the extreme right wing has made demonization of elected officials their priority.
A number of prominent left-wing blogs, including Daily Kos and FireDogLake, also blamed Sarah Palin for fanning the flames by placing Giffords—along with other vulnerable Democratic members of Congress—literally in the crosshairs on a map during the midterm elections. Grijalva said that the Palin "apparatus" shares responsibility for creating a climate of extremism. "Both Gabby and I were targeted in the apparatus in that cycle [saying] these people are 'enemies.'" He concluded: "The Palin express better look at their tone and their tenor."
 http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/01/grijalva-giffords-shooting-tea-party-palin
FROM THINKPROGRESS
Giffords' opponent in the recent election, Jesse Kelly, held a campaign event in June where participants were invited to shoot an automatic weapon with the candidate, which was advertised as a chance to "get on target for victory in November help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office":


 

Giffords's Office Was Vandalized by Followers of Former Militia Leader 8JAN11

THIS from Mother Jones, and the posts referenced by MOJO from the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog, including a panicky disclaimer from mike vanderboegh.......
Mike Vanderboegh, a former 1990s militia leader from Alabama, enouraged readers of his blog to throw bricks through the doors of members of Congress who had supported President Obama's health care bill last spring. One of the doors broken was that of Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot at a rally in a Tuscon supermarket earlier today.
Police have said the unidentified gunman, who shot Giffords at in the head at close range, along with several other people at the event, is in custody. He has not been identified or linked to any movement or group, and no evidence has been made public to show that his motives were political. According to the Tucson Citizen, police have arrested a second suspect and are seeking a third.
The Washington Post reported on the vandalism at Giffords's office, and on its subsequent interview with Vanderboegh, on March 25, 2010:
"To all modern Sons of Liberty: THIS is your time. Break their windows. Break them NOW."
These were the words of Mike Vanderboegh, a 57-year-old former militiaman from Alabama, who took to his blog urging people who opposed the historic health-care reform legislation -- he calls it "Nancy Pelosi's Intolerable Act" -- to throw bricks through the windows of Democratic offices nationwide.
"So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party [that they] cannot fail to hear, break their windows," Vanderboegh wrote on the blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars. "Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats. But BREAK THEM."
In the days that followed, glass windows and doors were shattered at local Democratic Party offices and the district offices of House Democrats from Arizona to Kansas to New York. At least 10 Democratic lawmakers reported death threats, incidents of harassment or vandalism at their offices over the past week, and the FBI and Capitol Police are offering lawmakers increased protection.
Local Democratic Party officials in New York have called for Vanderboegh's arrest, believing he is implicated in the vandalism in Rochester, but Vanderboegh said he has not yet been questioned by any law enforcement authorities.
Vanderboegh was unapologetic in a 45-minute telephone interview with The Washington Post early Thursday. He said he believes throwing bricks through windows sends a warning to Democratic lawmakers that the health-care reform legislation they passed Sunday has caused so much unrest that it could result in a civil war.
"The federal government should not have the ability to command us to buy something that it decides we should buy," Vanderboegh said. The government, he added, has "absolutely no idea the number of alienated who feel that their backs are to the wall are out here . . . who are not only willing to resist this law to the very end of their lives, but are armed and are capable of making such resistance possible and perhaps even initiating a civil war."...
Vanderboegh said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and House Democrats should beware "unintended consequences of their actions." Vanderboegh outlined a complicated theory that IRS agents will go after people who refuse to buy insurance or pay the fines, ultimately resulting in "civil war."
"The central fact of the health-care bill is this, and we find it tyrannical and unconstitutional on its face," Vanderboegh said. "The federal government now demands all Americans to pay and play in this system, and if we refuse, we will be fined, and if we refuse to pay the fine, they will come to arrest us, and if we resist arrest . . . then we will be killed. The bill certainly doesn't say that, but that's exactly and precisely what is behind every bill like this."
He said his call for people to throw bricks is "both good manners and it's also a moral duty to try to warn people."
In 2006, Vanderboegh advocated hurling bricks through the windows of members of Congress who supported giving illegal immigrants the same rights as U.S. citizens, according to news reports at the time. He said those bricks should be used to build a wall sealing off the United States from Mexico...
The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks extremist and hate groups, has been following Vanderboegh since the mid-1990s, when he first surfaced in Alabama militia groups, said Heidi Beirich, the center's research director.
"He has been on our radar forever," she said. "He hasn't been involved in any kind of violence that we know of ourselves, but these causes that he's involved in led to a lot of violence. The ideas that Vanderboegh's militia groups were pushing were the same extreme anti-government ideas that inspired [Timothy] McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing."
Vanderboegh, who lives in the Birmingham suburb of Pinson, described himself as a "Christian libertarian" and said he has long been a gun rights advocate. He said he joined a clandestine militia group called the "Sons of Liberty" and later became a public leader of the First Alabama Cavalry, Constitutional Militia.
IT didn't take any time for "dutchman6" to post this objection to the Mother Jones piece on him, I bet he has had to change his panties a couple of times just thinking about the Feds possibly coming after him.....

Saturday, January 8, 2011

Conflation Orgy Begins: Mass Shooting in Arizona Leads Mother Jones to Libel Me.

This is the first time I've been home today, although I was informed by cell phone of the multiple homicide in Arizona. It doesn't take long to be libeled by the left-collectivist press, though. A link sent to me by several readers goes to Mother Jones, where I've already been libeled by Jim Ridgeway.

Mike Vanderboegh, a former 1990s militia leader from Alabama, enouraged (sic) readers of his blog to throw bricks through the doors of members of Congress who had supported President Obama's health care bill last spring. One of the doors broken was that of Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot at a rally in a Tuscon supermarket earlier today.


That's a damn lie. I called on people to break local Democrat Party HQ windows. I specifically did not ask people to break federal windows because that is a federal crime. In point of fact, I called on folks to break windows because I was fearful of incidents of real violence such as this.

Now I don't know this murderer's story. He is said by the radio to be a 22-year old Afghan war vet. Whatever his grievance nothing justifies this mass killing, I don't care who the target is. My prayers go out to his victims and their families.

Even so, the collectivist conflation machine begins again.

LATER UPDATE: A reporter friend of mine says in an email, "Fox is reporting that his favorite book is Mien Kampf." Hardly surprising. If so, Ridgeway knows he's not one of mine for he detailed the militia's campaigns against the neoNazis in the 90s in both the Village Voice and George Magazine. If this guy is a neoNazi then it will make the conflation campaign slightly more difficult but hardly impossible for the fact-challenged media.

HERE IS THE ORIGINAL BLOG POST FROM THIS "SON OF LIBERTY", HE AND HIS KIND ARE THE REAL THREAT TO OUR REPUBLIC.....

Friday, March 19, 2010

To all modern Sons of Liberty: THIS is your time. Break their windows. Break them NOW.

Sons of Liberty burn and sack the house of the Massachusetts lieutenant governor, Thomas Hutchinson.

To all free Americans who still hold dear the Founders' vision of a constitutional Republic and who wish to remain free --

Nancy Pelosi's Intolerable Act is within days of passage by devious means so corrupt and twisted that even members of her own party recoil in disgust.

This act will order all of us to play or pay, and if we do not wish to, we will be fined.

If we refuse to pay the fine out of principle, we will be jailed.

If we resist arrest, we will be killed.

They will send the Internal Revenue Service and other federal police to do this in thousands of small Wacos, if that is what it takes to force us to submit.

This arrogant elite pretends that this oppression is for our own good, while everyone else understands that this is about their selfish, insatiable appetite for control over our liberty, our money, our property and our lives.

The majority of the people have made it plain that they do not want this tyrannical transfer of power wrapped in soft lies.

It does not matter.

Pelosi and her ilk apparently do not understand that this Intolerable Act has some folks so angry that they are ready to resist their slow-rolling revolution against the Founders' Republic by force of arms. Why should they? For in the past seventy-five years of being pushed back continually from the free exercise of our God-given rights to life, liberty and property, WE HAVE NEVER SHOVED BACK. Rather, it was we, the law-abiding, who backed up each time, grumbling.

These are collectivists. They do not hear you grumble. They do not, it is apparent after the past year of town halls and Tea Parties and nose-diving opinion polls, hear you SHOUT. They certainly do not hear the soft "snik-snik" of cleaning rods being used on millions of rifle barrels in this country by people who have decided that their backs are to the wall, politics and the courts no longer are sufficient to the task of defending their liberties, and they must make their own arrangements.

The Imperial Democrats do not care what you think. They will not hear you. They are every bit as arrogant and isolated as King George the Third was from the liberty-loving American colonists in 1775.

And yet, if we are to avoid civil war, we must get their attention BEFORE the IRS thug parties descend upon us each in turn -- when we will be forced into dozens of defensive slaughters and then, to end it, forced yet again to call Pelosi and the other architects of this war upon their own people to final account.

We are the law-abiding of this country, yes. We always have been. But when the "law" is distorted and twisted into an unconstitutional means of oppression, backed by the entire weight of the federal Leviathan, it is not "law" at all, but mere illegitimate force.

John Locke said it best:

"Whenever the legislators endeavor to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience."

When the law becomes a deadly tool of tyranny, it is no longer a good thing to be obedient and "law-abiding." It is, in fact, suicidal.

Yet, given the federal mandarins' willful ignorance of our very existence and conviction that we have no opinions that they are bound to respect, is there anything that can be done to prevent civil war?

Yes, there is.

We can emulate the Sons of Liberty of old.

We can break their windows.

These windows are not far away from where you are reading this right now. In virtually every city and county in this land, there is a local headquarters of Pelosi's party -- the Democrat party. These headquarters invariably have windows. When the Sons of Liberty wanted to express their opposition to the actions of the King's ministers, they would gather in front of the homes and offices of his tax-collectors and government officials in Boston or New York and break their windows. Glass was expensive. The King's minions were often the most well-to-do. The Sons of Liberty hit them in their pocketbooks.

Most importantly, however, was the message to the royal functionaries that there are personal consequences for oppressing your fellow citizens. The King is far away, and you are here, among us, the people.

This is the message that modern Sons of Liberty should get across to the Royalists of today. Now. Before we have to resort to rifles to resist their "well intentioned" tyranny.

This is not to say that the GOP (I refuse to call them "Republicans" for that is a misuse of the word) does not bear a large measure of responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in today. However, they have opposed this Intolerable Act. Yet, if we do a thorough job of breaking Democrat windows, I am sure that the GOP will profit from the example.

So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party cannot fail to hear, break their windows.

Break them NOW.

Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats.

But BREAK THEM.

The time has come to take your life, your liberty and that of your children and grandchildren into your own two hands and ACT.

It is, after all, more humane than shooting them in self defense.

And if we do a proper job, if we break the windows of hundreds, thousands, of Democrat party headquarters across this country, we might just wake up enough of them to make defending ourselves at the muzzle of a rifle unnecessary.

Sons of Liberty, this is your time.

Break their windows.

Break them NOW.

And Nancy, if this be sedition, if this be treason in your eyes, then make the most of it.

Mike Vanderboegh
PO Box 926
Pinson, AL 35126
GeorgeMason1776@aol.com
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com

If you agree with this message, spread it far and wide. The night is coming, and there are many windows to break. We'll need all the help we can muster.


LATER: There are those who feel that I have crossed a Rubicon here, and perhaps I have. I can only say that while wading the river, I met Nancy and her fellow jackasses coming the other way. I rather suspect they will make the opposite bank first. -- MBV