DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET TRANSVESTITE")
TIM CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter) Come up to the lab and see what's on the slab. I see you shiver with anticipation.
BIANCULLI: Both the stage and screen versions of "The Rocky Horror Show," starring Tim Curry as an extraterrestrial visitor who believed in sexual freedom and fluid sexual identities, had beginnings that might best be described as rocky. Richard O'Brien's stage musical "The Rocky Horror Show" began in London in 1973, ran for a while in a Los Angeles nightclub, then moved to Broadway in 1975. It opened there in March - starring Tim Curry, Richard O'Brien and Meat Loaf - and closed a month later. The movie version had been filmed before the brief Broadway run and was released later that year. But it, too, vanished quickly.
Vanished, that is, until a year later when a New York movie theater began hosting midnight screenings of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," launching a phenomenon that's still going strong. And next spring, "The Rocky Horror Show" is returning to Broadway, courtesy of a new production by the Roundabout Theatre Company. "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" movie starred two then-relatively unknown actors, Barry Bostwick and Susan Sarandon. They played young sweethearts Brad Majors and Janet Weiss. Brad and Janet are very much in love. Though, as the movie begins, they haven't yet given in to their passionate impulses.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DAMMIT JANET")
SUSAN SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss, singing) Oh, Brad...
BARRY BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors, singing) Oh, damn it.
SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss, singing) ...I'm mad...
BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors, singing) Oh, Janet.
SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss, singing) ...For you.
BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors, singing) I love you, too.
SUSAN SARANDON AND BARRY BOSTWICK: (As Janet Weiss and Brad Majors, singing) There's one thing left to do.
BIANCULLI: During a violent rainstorm, Brad and Janet seek shelter at a remote castle. It's run by Dr. Frank-N-Furter, a cross-dressing mad scientist from outer space, who is self-described as a sweet transvestite from Transylvania.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET TRANSVESTITE")
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter, singing) How'd you do? I see you've met my faithful handyman. He's just a little brought down because when you knocked, he thought you were the candy man. Don't get strung up by the way I look. Don't judge a book by its cover. I'm not much of a man by the light of day, but by night, I'm one hell of a lover. I'm just a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania.
BIANCULLI: Over the course of the movie, Frank, played by Tim Curry, builds the perfect sexual partner, seduces both Brad and Janet, and ends the movie pleading in song for people to follow their own dreams, embrace and explore their own identities and tolerate other lifestyles. Fifty years later, it's a message that still seems timely, even daring.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DON'T DREAM IT, BE IT")
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter, singing) Don't dream it, be it. Don't dream it, be it. Don't dream it, be it. Don't dream it, be it. Don't (laughter) dream it, be it. Don't (laughter) dream it, oh, be it.
BIANCULLI: Today on FRESH AIR, we note the 50th anniversary of the original Broadway stage production and that same year's release of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" by revisiting our 2005 interview with Tim Curry. Terry Gross spoke with him when he was about to star in another outrageous Broadway musical, "Spamalot," playing King Arthur. At that point, Tim Curry's post-"Rocky Horror" career had included roles in the movies "Clue" and "The Shout," the TV miniseries "It" - he played Pennywise - and "Rock Follies Of '77," the TV series "Wiseguy" and tons of voice work for animated movies and TV shows.
He suffered a stroke in 2012, but at age 78, continues to provide voices for cartoons. And in 2016, he appeared as the criminologist in a Fox TV movie version of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," which starred Laverne Cox as Frank-N-Furter. Let's begin with a scene from the original 1975 movie version. Brad and Janet have entered the castle soaking wet, and Frank-N-Furter's assistants have stripped them down to their underclothes as Frank looks them over wickedly.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW")
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter) Magenta, Columbia, go and assist Riff Raff. I will entertain (laughter)...
BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Brad Majors. This is my fiancee, Janet Weiss.
SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss) Weiss.
BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Weiss?
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter) Enchante. Well, how nice. And what charming underclothes you both have.
(LAUGHTER)
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter) But here, put these on. They'll make you feel less vulnerable.
(LAUGHTER)
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter) It's not often we receive visitors here, let alone offer them hospitality.
BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Hospitality? All we wanted to do was to use your telephone, damn it. A reasonable request, which you've chosen to ignore.
SARANDON: (As Janet Weiss) Now, don't be ungrateful.
BOSTWICK: (As Brad Majors) Ungrateful?
CURRY: (As Frank-N-Furter) How forceful you are, Brad. Such a perfect specimen of manhood, so dominant.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: You know, like so many other of your fans, I first saw you in "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" in the '70s. And when you see somebody in a movie for the first time, it's sometimes hard to tell how good they are. You don't know, is this all they can do? Do they do other things, too? Is this what they're really like, or, you know, how much are they acting? And so I saw you - I guess this was probably, like, the late '80s - in "Wiseguy," the TV series.
CURRY: Yes.
GROSS: And you played a kind of Phil Spector-ish, brilliant but crazy record producer.
CURRY: That's right.
GROSS: And a great, really terrific performance. And that, I think, is when I really got the picture, wow, he's really good at doing all kinds of things (laughter).
CURRY: That's so nice. I mean, it's sort of important for me because, you know, that first performance that sort of introduced me to everybody was so out there and so...
GROSS: I'll say, yeah.
CURRY: ...So kind of outrageous that, you know, I was a very quiet boy for a while, you know, just to make sure that people got it, that, you know, that wasn't necessarily who I was.
GROSS: Was that because of...
CURRY: It was my first movie, you know?
GROSS: That was your first movie?
CURRY: Yeah.
GROSS: How did you get the part?
CURRY: I got the part because I used to work a great deal at a theater in London called The Royal Court. And I guess - they have a little theater upstairs, which seats about 60 people, and I did Brecht there, and I did a sort of Rudyard Kipling show there. And I guess the next show - I did a dreadful musical, a Marxist musical called "Give The Gaffers Time To Love You" with a director who kept saying, Barry, the second act just simply isn't Marxist enough.
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: And that, of course, never even opened to the critics. But the next show coming in was this other musical called "The Rocky Horror Show." And originally, I played Frank-N-Furter as though he was German. (Imitating German accent) I was Dr. Frank-N-Furter, and everything was very interesting and stupid. And then, one day, I heard a woman on a bus saying, (imitating posh accent) do you have a house in town or a house in the country? And I thought, yes, he should sound like the queen.
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: So...
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: That's great.
CURRY: ...He should sound like the queen.
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: So - but that's how it happened, and it just started in this tiny theater, you know, and it just took off like a sort of rocket.
GROSS: Did you like the kind of cheap horror films that it, in part, parodied?
CURRY: Oh, absolutely. And I mean, it - Richard's brilliance really was just, you know, it was really like reaching up a hand into the zeitgeist and just grabbing, you know, '50s horror movies, Sandra Dee, comic books and '50s rock and roll, and just hurling them all together with, you know, some fishnet tights thrown in. And the fishnet tights really, you know, came from a brilliant costume designer called Sue Blane, who I had worked with before, actually, in a wonderful theater in Scotland called the Glasgow Citizens' Theatre, where we did a production of "The Maids," where I wore exactly that corset which we bought for 3...
GROSS: The Jean Genet play?
CURRY: Yeah, the Jean Genet play. I played Solange, and we bought the corset for 3 pounds off a barrow in the market in Glasgow and wore it back to front.
GROSS: That's funny you'd be wearing it in - for, like, this transgressive playwright Genet and then (laughter) this parody...
CURRY: Well, absolutely.
GROSS: ...Of everything, "Rocky Horror."
CURRY: Absolutely.
GROSS: Well, there's probably nothing that can get you into character quickly, like black bikini briefs, fishnet stockings, the garter belt, the corset, the whole (laughter) thing.
CURRY: Well, absolutely. And that was a fairly late development. I mean, I had no idea it was going to be like that at all.
GROSS: You didn't when...
CURRY: No.
GROSS: ...You accepted the part?
CURRY: No, no, no, no. I thought I'd be in a white lab coat, you know?
GROSS: So how did the whole thing...
CURRY: So it was a bit of a shock, actually.
GROSS: How did it all evolve then?
CURRY: Well, it evolved 'cause it was much funnier that way (laughter). And, I mean, the great - I thought the great gag about, you know, the way that we all looked was - and I've always said this to anybody who's ever asked me about playing Frank-N-Furter - if they were playing it, you know? - to just never think about it as drag, 'cause it's not. It's just what people wear in Transylvania.
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: I mean, it's just what everybody wears in Transylvania. So just get over it, you know? It's truck driver drag. It's it's not about going boop, boop be doop (ph). It's just what they happen to wear.
GROSS: I think the thing I found most amazing about the whole phenomenon of "Rocky Horror" was watching, like, the 12-year-olds outside the theater parading around in their transvestite clothes...
CURRY: (Laughter).
GROSS: ...Because they were all - there was just, like, all these 12-year-olds outside the theater imitating you in your get-up. And you had to just kind of ask yourself, what is going on here? What did the 12-year-olds make of it? I mean, are they going through some kind of gender thing, or do they just love the movie? Like, what is this about?
CURRY: I think it's all of the above, actually. I mean, I think, first of all, they love the movie because it's daring to pretty much everybody. It was daring at the time - less daring now. To them, it's daring. And it's also, I think, you know, there are several reasons why it's endured the way that it has. It's a kind of rite of passage now, I think. And actually, first of all, it's a guaranteed weekend party to which you can go with or without a date and probably find one if you don't have one. And it's also, I think, a chance for people to try on a few roles for size, you know, figure out - help them maybe figure out their own sexuality. I mean, I think that's probably taking it a little deeper than it needs to go, but I think it has had a useful purpose in that way. And I've certainly had some very interesting and moving mail from people who have said, you know, thanks for helping me figure out who I was. You know? And that's very nice.
GROSS: Did you ever go to one of, like, the midnight screenings back in the '70s and watch the movie with the people who were reciting along, and when they would make a toast on screen, people would, like, throw toast, you know, at the screen, and, you know, the whole bit? It became an incredibly participatory experience for the people who came to see it time and time again.
CURRY: I did go. I went a couple of times. Oddly enough, it started happening at the Waverly Theater...
GROSS: In Manhattan, in the Village.
CURRY: ...On Sixth Avenue in the Village. And ironically, I was living a block behind it on Jones Street.
GROSS: Oh, you're kidding.
CURRY: So I would see on my way home all these people. And, you know, I got to know about it rather quickly because I was a neighbor.
GROSS: Wow.
CURRY: And finally, I went to see it. And, in fact, I had to sort of call the theater because, you know, you could never get in. And I said, you know, I'm in it, and I'd really love to come and see it and get an eye full. And the operator said, you're the third Tim Curry to call this week.
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: So finally, I showed up, and they sort of believed me and took me in. And the word spread rather swiftly, and people were sort of coming up and touching me and running away and giggling. And it was a very, very peculiar experience. And then finally, the usherette - I don't know what you call them, really. That's what they call them in England - came and sort of dragged me out of my seat and announced that I was an impostor and threw me out of the theater, which is...
GROSS: Wow.
CURRY: ...Which is quite funny, really.
GROSS: Did you protest?
CURRY: So I actually had - well, I actually had my passport on me, and...
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: ...I pulled it out, and I said, still think I'm an impostor? And she said, oh, Mr. Curry, I'm so sorry. Please come back in. And I said, I wouldn't dream of coming back in.
(LAUGHTER)
CURRY: And I saw it once - I saw it once on the Strip in LA because I was doing a gig there with my band when I was making records, and I took them up to the balcony to see it, and I remember my drummer coming out and saying, we don't have to dress up like that, do we?
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: And I - you know, I said, no, you really don't, and I shan't be, either. But it was odd. I mean, it's a very peculiar experience. I mean, the first person to actually shout back in the theater was David Bowie's first wife, Angie.
GROSS: Really?
CURRY: I remember when Bowie came, and he brought this huge entourage, and she was with him. And when Richard O'Brien was about to kill me, she shouted, no, no, don't do it. And so I guess she was one of the first people to sort of do that. And Marc Shaiman, who's the sort of famous composer now, was one of the first who actually talked back in the Waverly. I think he began it here in New York. And now, of course, it's everywhere.
BIANCULLI: Tim Curry speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with Tim Curry. He starred in both the Broadway version of "The Rocky Horror Show," which opened 50 years ago, and the movie version, "The Rocky Horror Picture Show," released the same year.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Your father was a chaplain in the British Navy.
CURRY: Yes.
GROSS: What did your parents think of your role in "Rocky Horror"?
CURRY: Well, he alas was dead 'cause he died when I was 12.
GROSS: Oh.
CURRY: So he wasn't even aware that I was an actor, even. I think my mother (laughter) - my mother, who, you know, is really, like, one of those sort of "Monty Python" ladies, you know, (impersonating old lady) I can't imagine what's going on...
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: ...You know, who will - always had a hat, and - since my first job in the theater was "Hair" and, you know, I...
GROSS: And you were probably naked in that, right?
CURRY: ...And I did appear naked in it, I think, you know, it was a relief to her that I actually was wearing clothes of any kind in "The Rocky Horror Show."
GROSS: At least you were covered by a corset and garters (laughter).
CURRY: She was happily unaware that part of the character, particularly Frank-N-Furter at his most gracious, was based on her.
GROSS: (Laughter) In what way?
CURRY: Well, it was sort of her telephone voice, you know? (As Frank-N-Furter) Do you have any tattoos, Brad?
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: My sister, when she saw it, fell on the floor and said, you know, does she know? And I said, no, she has absolutely no idea, and please don't tell her. She thought it was very, very amusing and brought all her friends. So she was pretty hip lady, my mother, and she got it. I mean, you know, astonishingly, she loved it.
GROSS: That's really funny.
CURRY: She didn't like it as much as "The Pirates Of Penzance," which I did at Drury Lane, because the Queen Mother came to that, and that, you know, was the total seal of approval of my career.
GROSS: And I would bet that she did not - the Queen Mother did not go to "Hair" or "Rocky Horror."
CURRY: I don't think she went to either, although Princess Margaret did come to "Rocky Horror" and had a wonderful time.
GROSS: Really?
CURRY: And so did - and Princess Diana actually requested to meet me because she was such a "Rocky Horror" fan.
GROSS: So did you ever meet Princess Diana?
CURRY: I did actually meet Princess Diana. We - I was doing a production of "Love For love," and it was taken to Vienna for British Week, and we played at the Burgtheater. And Prince Charles and Princess Diana were the guests of honor, and - which was when she said that she very much wanted to meet me. And so they sort of put me at the end of the receiving line. And Prince Charles said, I think I've seen you on television. Haven't I seen you on television? I said, yes, sir, I'm sure you've seen me on television. Yes, I think - I thought I'd seen you on television. But Diana said, you were in "The Rocky Horror Show." And I said, yes, ma'am, I was, but I'm sure that you haven't seen it. She said, oh, yes. She said, it quite completed my education.
GROSS: (Laughter).
CURRY: She was a very funny girl, and a very beautiful one and sort of the - a very wicked smile came with that sentence. She was great fun.
BIANCULLI: Tim Curry speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. A new version of "The Rocky Horror Show" is scheduled to arrive on Broadway next spring. After a break, we remember sports writer, author and NPR commentator John Feinstein, who died last week at age 69. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TIME WARP")
RICHARD O'BRIEN: (As Riff Raff, singing) It's astounding. Time is fleeting. Madness takes its toll. But listen closely.
PATRICIA QUINN: (As Magenta, singing) Not for very much longer.
O'BRIEN: (As Riff Raff, singing) I've got to keep control. I remember doing the Time Warp, drinking those moments when the blackness would hit me...
RICHARD O'BRIEN AND PATRICIA QUINN: (As Riff Raff and Magenta, singing) ...And the void would be calling.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, singing) Let's do the Time Warp again. Let's do the Time Warp again.
CHARLES GRAY: (As The Criminologist, singing) It's just a jump to the left.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, singing) And then a step to the right.
GRAY: (As The Criminologist, singing) Put your hands on your hips.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters, singing) And bring your knees in tight. But it's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane. Let's do the Time Warp again. Let's do the Time Warp again.
QUINN: (As Magenta, singing) It's so dreamy. Oh, fantasy free me. So you can't see me. No, not at all. In another dimension with voyeuristic intention, well secluded...
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