NORTON META TAG

13 June 2014

Prominent pastor/radio host offers chilling advice to parents with adult kids who are gay & John MacArthur on Having Gay Children: Alienate Them & Turn Them Over to Satan & Some Things To Consider If You Think Being Gay Is A Sin 3&10JUN&29MAI14

THE hypocrisy in this pastor's statement is stunning and he should be ashamed. This will only encourage hatred, discrimination, prejudice and possibly violence against the LGBT community. Last I knew those are not the teachings of Jesus Christ.  Thankfully there other Christian leaders who are speaking out against him and his heresy. Here is the text of 1st Corinthians 5 (below). Homosexuality is not specifically mentioned, but incest is, along with sexual immorality (allowing human interpretation based not on the teachings of Christ but on personal prejudice thus condemnation of gays when the scripture actually addresses all sexual activity outside marriage). john mccarthur knew better than to apply this scripture to society at large, if he did he would loose most of his followers and their money. If he applied all of the things listed to society at large Christians would have to consider their greed and actual tithing, their idolatry with their striving for more material goods to keep up with their neighbors, their pooh-poohing of having too much to drink as well as use of other drugs. And slanderers. Gossip is slander, and it is rampant in too many of our churches. And how many of our politicians of any party should be allowed to address Christians in our churches and at our conventions? Why, Christians shouldn't be donating time and / or money or voting for the vast majority of our politicians because slander of their opponents and our government comes as easy to the majority of our politicians as breathing. Finally, read the definition of swindle (swin·dle [swin-dl] verb (used with object), swin·dled, swin·dling.
1. to cheat (a person, business, etc.) out of money or other assets.
2. to obtain by fraud or deceit. verb (used without object), swin·dled, swin·dling.
3. to put forward plausible schemes or use unscrupulous trickery to defraud others; cheat. noun
4. an act of swindling or a fraudulent transaction or scheme.
5. anything deceptive; a fraud: This advertisement is a real swindle.)
, look in the mirror, and let those who aren't guilty of this sin cast the first stone.

1 Corinthians 5

New International Version (NIV)

Dealing With a Case of Incest

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]
 Footnotes:
  1. 1 Corinthians 5:5 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
  2. 1 Corinthians 5:5 Or of his body
  3. 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.
  4. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7
From Daily Kos.....
Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 03:12 PM PDT

Prominent pastor/radio host offers chilling advice to parents with adult kids who are gay


One of the few prominent evangelical/fundamentalist pastors who has largely stayed out of political hankering has dipped his toe into those waters--and in one of the ugliest ways possible.  John MacArthur pastors Grace Community Church in the San Fernando Valley and hosts the daily radio show "Grace to You."  He has a sterling reputation in the evangelical community, and his show has been a ratings juggernaut on Christian radio for decades.
Last week, MacArthur got a letter from a listener who wanted to know what to do after one of her kids came out as gay.  MacArthur's advice?  Unless that child "repents," he or she should be completely disowned and isolated.  Watch here.
http://youtu.be/tWYAwknMlH4

MacArthur says that if a parent finds out his or her child his gay, that parent has to completely shun them and "turn them over to Satan."  I've seen some pretty ugly rants against gays before, but this has got to be one of the worst.  If there's any difference at all between the spirit of this message from MacArthur and the spirit of Westboro, I'd like to know--because I sure don't see any.
When Benjamin Corey, a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and the author of the "Formerly Fundie" blog at Patheos, found out about this, he hit the ceiling.  In a rebuttal, Corey pointed out how inconsistent fundies are about shunning.
One of the key passages folks use to support shunning comes from 1 Corinthians 5– the unfortunate truth, however, is that Paul lists several sins he thought were shun-worthy. Folks like MacArthur have lifted sexual immorality out of that passage while completely ignoring the rest of what Paul taught. Why?
Because it would be horribly inconvenient to actually practice this verse. In it, Paul teaches that we are to have nothing to do with Christians who are… greedy.
Which in America, is a whole lot of us. I wonder if MacArthur would also suggest you shun an adult child who makes $200,000 a year but doesn’t tithe or give any of their money to charity? Somehow, I doubt it.
Corey then ticks off a laundry list of people who should be shunned if we were to really practice that verse.  Probably explains why it's applied so selectively.  To his mind, the only appropriate response to someone who comes out as gay is to "walk across the room, give them a big hug, and tell them that you’re always going to love them."  Couldn't agree more.
Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 5:37 AM PT: Since this made the rec list, I thought I'd share something Horace Boothroyd III dug up in the comments that makes MacArthur's advice even more obscene.  It turns out that a whopping 40 percent of homeless kids are LGBT.  Out of that figure, 68 percent of them have experienced rejection by their families.  Hope MacArthur is proud of himself.

John MacArthur on Having Gay Children: Alienate Them & Turn Them Over to Satan


John MacArthur was recently asked by a reader how they should respond to an adult child who has acknowledged they are gay. His parenting advice?
Alienate them.
Separate them.
Isolate them.
Refuse to have a meal with them.
Turn them over to Satan.
Here’s the full clip: SEE video above

I have a better idea: if you have a child who comes out to you, regardless of your theological opinion, here’s what you should do:
Walk across the room, give them a big hug, and tell them that you’re always going to love them.
What troubles me about MacArthur’s advice, and so many who think like him, is the horrible inconsistency that often is used when it comes to shunning. One of the key passages folks use to support shunning comes from 1 Corinthians 5– the unfortunate truth, however, is that Paul lists several sins he thought were shun-worthy. Folks like MacArthur have lifted sexual immorality out of that passage while completely ignoring the rest of what Paul taught.
Why?
Because it would be horribly inconvenient to actually practice this verse. In it, Paul teaches that we are to have nothing to do with Christians who are… greedy.
Which in America, is a whole lot of us. I wonder if MacArthur would also suggest you shun an adult child who makes $200,000 a year but doesn’t tithe or give any of their money to charity? Somehow, I doubt it.
I wonder if MacArthur would teach that we should isolate, alienate, and turn over to Satan our children who struggle with over-eating? That can be a form of greed because it is taking more than you need.
Or, what about the idolators mentioned in that same passage? I know a boat load of Christians who are trusting in firearms for their safety instead of God– which is idolatry. According to Paul, they should be shunned as well.
And, don’t even get me started on the fact that Paul also mentions “abusive” people in that passage also. That’s a whole other can of worms that would require shunning a lot of Christians in leadership.
Paul goes on to also include drunks and swindlers… so let’s make the list of people we’re going to shun even longer.
I’m just glad that I worship Jesus– not MacArthur (or even Paul himself!).
Jesus is the one who religious conservatives hated because instead of shunning, he had meals with people.
The drunks.
The hookers.
The swindlers.
You know, the kind of people we’re supposed to shun.
This is precisely why we are to make Jesus– and nothing else– the center of our faith and practice. Because it is through Jesus we find that sharing a meal, not alienation, is what love looks like.
So, please– if you have a child who comes out to you, forget everything that MacArthur is saying on shunning, and exchange it for giving a hug and sharing a meal.

Some Things To Consider If You Think Being Gay Is A Sin


Please consider that regardless of whether you’re able to fully accept this or not, there are gay Christians.
Like I said yesterday, perhaps your theology on the issue might not ever change or evolve, but please know, these are real people you’re talking about. This isn’t just a “concept” or an inanimate object– these are real live Christian brothers and sisters that deserve every bit of love and empathy as anyone else. Maybe you haven’t counseled the teenager in your church who wants to kill themselves because they’re finally realizing that they’re gay and always have been. Maybe you haven’t had a friend weep in your presence over the fact that they realize they are gay, but also realize they did not chose to be– and that they’ll never be accepted by the tribe. Maybe you haven’t had a chance to serve in church for years on end next to someone who you never realized was in fact, gay the whole time and also unwavering in their love for Jesus and commitment to the church.
These things have happened to me, but I get that maybe you’ve never experienced them. So please, just consider that we are not talking about an “issue” here– we’re talking about real people. People created in the image and likeness of God. People with feelings, passions, hopes, and dreams. When we allow this to simply become an “issue” within modern Christian discourse, we end up dehumanizing the very real people we’re actually referencing.
Please become willing to reexamine what the Bible teaches on homosexuality.
The apostle Paul taught that the church at Berea was “more noble” than other churches because they didn’t blindly believe what he taught, but instead studied the scriptures for an answer. Would you be willing to do what the church at Berea did, and reexamine what is, or may not be, in scripture? Remember- when looking at scripture there are all sorts of things to consider, such as historical context, the original language, etc. While such exegesis is encouraged in many other theological areas (such as women covering their heads) it’s not often encouraged on this issue. I would invite you to reexamine these passages and consider the same factors we consider when interpreting or applying any other part of scripture.
If you’re willing to do this, Matthew Vines has a great new book with does exactly that– God and the Gay Christian– and I would strongly urge you to read it. Matthew is a conservative evangelical who writes from a conservative evangelical perspective, and does an outstanding job at showing that there is a very legitimate, alternate understanding of some of these texts. When considering any issue, it is important to take into account and give an honest ear to all sides of an issue. Rarely has a conservative evangelical done what Vines has done, and I would strongly encourage you to read it, and consider the arguments he makes as you formulate your own opinion on what the Bible does, or does not, teach on the issue.
Even if you don’t agree with Matthew in the end, his book will help you to realize that many people affirm monogamous, same sex marriage without discarding the Bible. I know to some of you that might sound crazy, which is really why you should read the book– from one conservative evangelical to another. I think what Matt has done is huge: at a minimum, he has helped to show there is an alternative biblical understanding which should firmly place this issue into the category of “secondary theology” where Christian charity should leave room for disagreement without declaring who is in, and who is out.
Please consider that we treat our gay brothers and sisters differently than everyone else, and even if you’re right– this behavior is wrong.
Let’s say your theology doesn’t change and that you even turn out to be correct in that homosexuality is a sin. Still, you face a cultural issue that one should find appalling– the fact that we’ve basically forced gay Christians to go out and get their own churches instead of being welcomed at ours.
Greg Boyd shows the absurdity of what we’ve done in his book, Repenting of Religion (one of my favorites– and will provoke you in good ways. Greg once said that he lost 1000 members of his church when he wrote it). In the book, Greg points out that America has an obesity epidemic and that much of the time, the obesity is caused by gluttony (over eating)– which is a sin. Furthermore, we know that over-eating is also greed (taking more than what you need), which the Bible calls idol worship (Col 3:5, Eph 5:5). Boyd’s question then becomes (as does mine): if we make gay Christians go out and get their own churches, why are we not forcing people who are obese due to over eating to go out and get their own churches as well? Obviously, we’d never dream of such a thing– the sin of over eating is culturally acceptable, so we ignore the teachings of scripture on it most of the time. On a more practical level, as Boyd points out, we know the reasons why a person may over eat are complex, personal, and unknown to us– which means that only God can judge them, since God is the only one who understands the whole picture.
Therefore, even if homosexuality is a sin, following this line of thinking, we should be using the same standard that we use with people who are obese from over eating: love them, include them, and refrain from judging them. The fact that we have created an entire, separate way of viewing and treating our gay brothers and sisters, is nothing short of corporate sin.
We’d rarely- if ever- treat these people the way LGBTQ people get treated, and that should be a deeply concerning realization. The fact that one group, and only one group, has been effectively marginalized from the church (you know, that thing that’s supposed to represent Jesus here on earth) should cause us tremendous sorrow.
Please consider that even if you’re right, it shouldn’t dramatically change the praxis of your faith.

Tuesday I was with my friend and fellow author, Frank Schaeffer and he was telling me a story about his parents. They were theologically conservative on the issue of homosexuality, but as Frank describes, were “glorious hypocrites” because they were so loving to their gay friends in their day to day living. Ultimately, I think the correctness of a theological opinion is somewhat irrelevant in comparison to personal behavior– a truth Jesus taught in Matthew 25. Consider all sides and still think it’s a sin? Have at it– but please consider being a glorious hypocrite on the issue, as we are on so many others, by choosing radical love for other people instead of planting your flag in the rightness of correct belief.
Even I have publicly admitted that I still struggle with the entire theology around this– struggling with theology is okay. However, as I have also stated publicly, wherever I land will be irrelevant to the praxis of my faith, just as it was for Frank’s parents. I will still radically love people. I will still radically include people. I will still invite everyone to join me in following Jesus… and I will still refrain from judgement, because I’m not God and I don’t have all of the information to make righteous judgements about others.
There’s no reason why this issue should change the praxis of your faith, either. We’re all just trying to follow Jesus, and we should be so focused on our own issues that we lack the time to focus on the perceived issues of others.
Please consider that the cultural obsession with homosexuality within the American Church is detracting from the things Jesus asked us to do.
Later today I’ll be releasing an interview I shot Tuesday with Frank Schaeffer regarding his new book, Why I’m An Atheist Who Believes In God. In the book, he writes that “Jesus was a traitor to the culture wars of his day”, because the message Jesus came to bring didn’t line up with the battles the current culture wanted to fight. The same is true today– it is American Christian culture who has placed this issue at the front and center and convinced much of the culture that this is “the” war worth fighting. Meanwhile, in the past two years I’ve met with rescued slaves in India, orphans in Africa, seen kids in third world countries drink water that could easily kill them, and watched the homeless trot off into the streets during a New England blizzard. There are real, pressing issues we could devote our time to– but the whole anti-gay battle? That’s a distraction from the real issues facing our world– issues we can actually impact if we don’t get caught up into fabricated culture wars. So, please consider being like Jesus– be a traitor to the culture wars of today, and focus on the issues that really matter.
 ///
As I said, I believe this to be an issue that should be kept to secondary theology that still allows for Christian unity and that regardless of where our theology lands, it should not impact the praxis of our faith. I understand this is a hard issue for many of you to wrestle with, and this post isn’t one where I’m trying to provoke you or get in your face– I just humbly ask, that you please consider these few things… and see what might change within your own heart.

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